Psionics is a sin

[Mr.Experiment]

daevl said:

kagexcore said:

Lol, It feels wrong to agree with me?

Hm, thats somthing to think about xD

Though I dont always agree with myself.
~Jano

I was just kidding, because I'm usually disagreeing with what you're saying in IRC, or I used to at least.


Iluveire, you say it's a problem but many branches of Christianity see the bible as a tool meant for personal interpretation. A lot of people meditate on certain passages and try to find a meaning relevant to themselves or some kind of deeper meaning possibly between the lines that people miss by taking everything literally.

If you do view the bible in this way then there really is no arguement as to whether psionics or, indeed, anything else is a sin that you can put forth to anyone other than your own consciousness because it is all personal choice.


Taking the bible word for word as all out fact, however is quite a dangerous thing to do as it has had thousands of years to get lost in translation and tainted by various monarchies and churches. Something which a lot of people -especially Catholics- overlook.

Well, in some cases I agree more with you then with my self, only because the way I write things, or see things in my head is..quite confusing and discombobulated and your words are more clear and understandable.
Sometimes I need to switch my mindset to that similiar to a computer, but then I speak more logical then using creativity.

~Jano

[T_Hornberger]

daevl said:

tdog said:

Some of us consider Psi a Gift...so if a natural gift is a sin, then are these sins

Being a natural at playing an instrument
Being the smartest kid in your math class
Getting All A's All of your life
Being the most accurate shot with a rifle out of your friends

Are these things sins, I sure don't think so. I also think though, that "bad" is what you interpret it as. If you interpret using a natural gift as a sin, then yes psi is a sin, but if doing stuff that anybody could do if they learned how to do it right is ok, then it's not a sin.

All of these things can be, and usually are, achieved with work. Psionics is. not. a. gift, whether you consider it one or not, everyone can do it, everyone needs to work to advance. It's no more a gift than anything else you are born with.

Wait, Psionics is not achieved with work, that is wrong. To do psionics well does require work. i mean there are naturals at it, just like there are naturals with other stuff, but it does require work to get good at. just like instruments, that does require work, but anybody could play them well if they practiced for long enough

[daevl]

Sorry

[Darin Rosewood]

It doesn't speak well for the debate borad that THIS is the thread with the most posts. The entire thread was started with a logical fallacy. It's called "Shifting the burden of proof." You can't just say something and say "prove me wrong." You're making the claim, Apollo, the burden of proof rests on your shoulders. Since you didn't back up your claims in the OP, in a formal debate (which this board is for), you automatically lose. Topic over. ^_^

But since everyone seems to like this topic, I'll add my two cents. As the word "sin" applies exclusively to the Abrahamic faiths, and since all three major Abrahamic religions are based around the word of their respective holy books, I'll assume that the whole of your argument is based on stuff that those holy books say. As such, I will be more than happy to prove to you that there is no prohibition against any metaphysical practice in the Bible or Koran (no need to say the Torah, since it's the first five books of the Bible anyway). Name any place in the Bible or Koran that seems to prohibit metaphysical practice, and I'll show you why it doesn't.

[daevl]

Sorry

[snowind]

I think that Psionics is not a sin simply for a some basic reasons.

I think that in order for something to be considered a sin has to be stated on the bible... Somewhere on the bible. It states the 10 commands, and in any of those it does not states something making reference to psi. It does say that killing is a sin as Apollo already stated, but then again, the sin is the action "killing" not the tool "Psi" (that is in case you actually manage to kill something with psi).

Also in the writtings, there are mention to people with obvious psionic skills, like Joseph the dream interpreter, he obviously had Lucid Dreaming and was good at Freud's theory (yes, even though it didn't existed yet), and that's the reason he was so good at it. Almost all prophets show cases of precognition. I mean the Apocalypsis book is nothing more than a "Precognition" book. Where it shows the end of the world and the prophet seeing how it ends and then writting it.

What I'm trying to say is that "Actions" are sins, psi is just the tool we use to do actions. So psionics can't be sins because they are not evil. It's the way we use them that can be considered evil.

So in short, what I'm trying to say here is:

Psi is not evil, People are evil. So naturally Psi is not a sin.

*Note to Apollo: Try proving me wrong on that one... *

[loceimicamornie]

I will quote a friend of mine "for lack of a better word what we do is magic". I will not reveal who said this for personal protection and PLEASE do not flam this saying. This is some one that is not involved in this discussion, they can not defend them selves.

BUT, lets say that is what we do, and we actually perform magic in a sense. Then bible does say, in an easily translated verse. Here are the ones that i have found:

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Revelations 21:8

and

Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Revelations 22:15

and the link to the hole chapter (Revelations 21) -> bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+21&version=31
and the link to the hole chapter (Revelations 22)-> bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+22&version=31

Now, this is coming from the stand point that what we do is magic. In this case it is very clear that it is not right, meaning it is evil, to perform these feet's (right word?). Please note that i have not made up my decision if what we do is indeed magic. Though i will be emailing to a pastor from a church about this. I NEED to know if this practice is ok (this is for my own thoughts/purposes, i am not saying that what i find out applies you.)

I ask you not flam me or put me down. I am only providing the things that you all have asked for. though i need you to take a thought into who we are put in terms with in these phrases (yes, if what we do is magic) And note that we are the last ones in the phrase meaning that it is worse than murder. <- major point!!! Use caution when talking on this, it boarders being out ruled by the admins. And if it is please send me a note and i will correct this statement, i will take no affence.

one last thing, once again i am standing neutral on this. I have not put to much of my own religuse thoughts into this matter, and i am still undecided if this is indeed a sin.

[loceimicamornie]

Very sorry for double post but here is were i found this information

bibleresources.bible.com/keywordsearchresults.php?multiplemethod=all&numpageresults=25&select=searchBible&keyword=magic&Submit.x=0&Submit.why=0&version=31

The things that i quoted are the last two i believe. Once again sorry for the double post.

[snowind]

Yeah, It's not magic, is just using energy, so..... It's not appearing a rabbit out of a hat, (althought that technically is just illusionism which isn't magic either...)

So I stand by my point.

[daevl]

Sorry

[snowind]

daevl said:

"Also in the writtings, there are mention to people with obvious psionic skills, like Joseph the dream interpreter, he obviously had Lucid Dreaming and was good at Freud's theory"

Not psionic abilities. Lucid dreaming is about awareness, it is not psionics.

The 10 commandments are also not the only rules that the bible lays down, an eye for an eye is a rule to live by but it is outside the commandments, the bible was intended as more than just a story book. I don't have any examples of the bible saying that psionics is a sin because, to be honest, I don't give a crap about Christianity, but I'm sure that someone more dedicated could find some pretty good points in there. And even if no one here does, it invalidates the 10 commandments arguement.

Your last point about psi not being evil, people being evil, brings us again to what people interpret as a sin. If the bible speaks ill of some form of psionics, doesn't that make it a sin in the eyes of a Christian? You can't argue that the bible doesn't say that it's a sin, so it's not a sin, and then afterwards argue that you don't think it's a sin, so it's not a sin. You either believe in your own values, or the values that the bible lays down.

If you think that sins are what the bible tells you then you should do some research and actually read the bible before you cite it for an arguement.
If you think that sins are at your own discretion then there is no way to use that in an arguement because it's based entirely on your own moral system and your own values, totally irrelevant to the rest of the world.

First of all... You may have not read the bible but I have... I had to when I was a child. Although I don't remember the exact phrases I remember the general Ideas.

loceimicamornie already cited some of the phrases that the bible states about the sins, as I said it is not magic. That the modern church might consider it magic right now, doesn't implies that it is, as you said you can't say something out of mere believes.

And the only part I used "I think" was where I said that sins are considered in the bible. Because that's the only subjective part I used in my point of view. So It's not "just" based on my moral perspective.

So I would appreciate if you took a little more time and actually read it before you started criticizing it...

And it's not "what people interpret as a sin", sin is the biblical point of view. "What people interpret as a sin" is ethics. Not Religion. Just so you know, because you're taking the Religious posture. You can't talk about the bible and general population interpretation in the same sentence.

Even at ethics, is not what people interpret as a sin, it's the norms and laws given by society. In Ethics evil actually is an archetype. It's like I said, the action. Not the tool. And since Psi is not action but a tool for men. It can't be a sin.

In other words, (and please read this and analyze it before stating stuff), Psionics is a tool. Tools are not sins. Actions are sins. People make the actions. Psionics is not evil.

And I really don't want to explain it again so read it carefully before posting a response to this.

[loceimicamornie]

snowind:
Like i said its a friend of mine that said that. I am not totally sure that it is magic my self. I do agree with you on that note. Thank you for your reply.

daevl:
You make an exilant point i must admit. Very well done, i am impressed and i do understand your argument. Still i do not approve of this statement from you:

"If you think that sins are what the bible tells you then you should do some research and actually read the bible before you cite it for an arguement."

First i did not say that the bible only tells us what sins are, and second this hole topic is about sin. Just a small point and nothing to put you down. Still very well said.


I will hold other arguments till there are more posts. I want to give you all a chance to respond, and state your arguments. Till then, peace my friends.

[daevl]

Sorry

[loceimicamornie]

Please note that the last post of mine was put in before i read your last statement snowind

I do strongly agree with you last statement about it being a tool, and how you use it is a sin. I am sorry to say that a lot of what you have said did go a little over my head. I am not used to such a strong debate (that said well done). So i will with hole further arguments at this time till i have a better understanding.

I will however leave you the argument concerning the bible. I will say that i have not read the hole book, but i have the parts concerning magic. Still you will know best in this area, sorry if i did wrong.

I will state that once again my view if this as a sin is still not totally put into stone so please excuse me if my arguments are a little off and/or week

thank you

[snowind]

I don't really know If I would do best because, I really don't agree with much things the bible said, I was just taking a biblical point of view, not mine.

Anyway, to Daevl, That many people view psi as magic doesn't mean it's the truth. So I wouldn't mess with that point of view. Because then again I can think that pigs are green and just because I think it it's not true. So bad posture in that part.

The debate in question is that Psionics is a sin. To that, I have told you a real answer, not based on my points of view but more in the definitions of evil and how the religion says that doing evil is a sin.

In the statements I put that you quote. The ones about me saying Psi is a tool not an action therefor Psi is not a sin. You answered that I had no biblical posture. I'm sorry but isn't the whole thing discussed here is that the bible says that evil acts constitute a sin?.

I'm just saying that psionics is not an evil act. It's a tool, the matter in how we use that tool, either for good or bad, states the sin. So Psi itself its not a sin, the sin would be the way we use it.

You have also said that if the church says something the christians will follow, and that's not quite true, many separatist churchs, (anglicans, Christians, orthodoxs) didn't agree with what the church said and separated. I believe the Vatican is the Catholic Church. But well, as I said before, it's not the matter on how the church in general sees it. The church considered a sin many things that really weren't and then had to apologize for that. So in the end what really matters is if the act itself its bad or not. And that's why I gave those opinions.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on my previews posts.

So please, don't deal with points of view because they are subjective, and what we're dealing here is the objective part. "Is Psionics a sin or not?" just that, the objective version, not the "the church believes, and also all my psionic and occult buddies..." version. Which would be the subjective version.

I'm sorry if I'm offending someone, it's not what I intend to do. But well, in a debate you always have to be on the objective point of view because, in a debate the subjective part is kind of obsolete and easy to refute.

I think Apollo is making an excellent work trying to teach us how to debate.